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ECT News Community   »   E-Commerce Times Talkback   »   Re: Searching for IT in Karachi

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: Anthony Mitchell 2005-02-22 07:05:38
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Two motorcycles collide, Ben Hur style, spilling four lads out across the roadway, slick with gray water. They pick themselves up, brush off their clothes, pull fenders and other peripherals back into place, then speed away. Not one harsh word is exchanged. Nor is there a single helmet among the lot of them. Welcome to the old Saddar market area of Karachi, Pakistan, where computers, mobile devices, and other electronics are sold. Business is booming here, with goods flying out of the stores like birds freed from a cage.

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: appliedfor 2005-03-24 12:44:37 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
Its a nice effort done by Anthony Mitchell about the current state of IT prospects in Pakistan. Such articles will help giving an idea to foreign companies that how good and promising is the IT environment in Pakistan. Just as mentioned by the author that along with good no. of mid size software companies, no. of multinational IT giants are also working in Karachi-Pakistan, its also the same case in other Pakistani cites like Lahore and Islamabad and this no. is growing everyday. One wrong perception that hinders decision of many foreign IT companies to initiate offshore offices in Pakistan is there security concern in Pakistan. This wrong perception should be cleared by the facts mentioned in this article that if such big IT giants have not only started there business but r also growing there offices in Pakistan then certainly security concerns are absolutely wrong and so reality is otherwise. I am not saying it is heaven security wise(as no country is nowadays after 9/11) but Pakistan is certainly as safe as any other country in this world. This is also a view of my forign US managers who are currently working in our Pakistan office. Last but not least, constant increase of forign investment every year in Pakistan is a sufficient fact to figure out, how safe Pakistan is for business.

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: mominansari 2005-03-08 23:01:20 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
Hey I am fom Pakistan Karachi studying in I.T currently working on My Final Project i.e Robotic Asia ....... only one will be selected ......just pray for me ......... Living in karachi is a pride to me with its socially bounded society and ties yes its always and will remain my heaven .............. bye

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: bedeobrien 2005-02-28 11:02:29 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
This guy is a shill for Musharraf

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: Sperios 2005-02-27 12:53:24 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
Frankly, I am bit embarrassed to read belittling and incendiary slurs hurled at each other from both sides. It is also interesting to note how quickly rationality, equanimity, and common sense is shed in favor of the rhetoric that falls in line with the political views espoused by politicians from both sides – reducing a potential discourse on ideas to a mere shouting match – what a waste of time!

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: music 2005-02-25 00:51:33 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
Now, this why I have a problem here. Either Anthony Mitchell is concocting stories and telling blatant lies or he is plain ignorant.
In this article he says, or rather makes Amir say that "India last year had IT exports of [US]$10 billion to $14 billion, whereas Israel had $35 billion"
I researched this because, I was surprised by the 35 Billion number. Till 2 years ago their exports were hovering around 2 Billion!!
Thank God Amir didn't say 35 Trillion, because Anthony would have wrote just that. I hope Amir is not managing the finances of his e-commerce company. As far has his company whose only competitors are in Israel, India and "one in Russia", - For Christs sake the guy is doing some PIM stuff (Essentially Content Management), There are a zillion Indian companies out there that do this. Infact the one of the largest US compnay in the area is majority owned and led by an Indian. No trumpeting, just putting the facts as it is!
Lies, Lies, and more Lies!

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: sfazam 2005-04-27 02:09:56 In reply to: music
May be u r right but read this first.
Insecurities over Indian outsourcing
Published: April 26, 2005, 12:00 PM PDT
A case of bank fraud involving an India-based outsourcer has rekindled a debate about using overseas contractors for tasks involving sensitive data.
Some say there's little risk, while others warn of serious hazards, including a threat to America's national sovereignty.
In the incident, former call center employees of Mphasis are accused of taking part in a theft of $350,000 from U.S. consumers' bank accounts.......

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: observe 2005-03-03 00:04:16 In reply to: music
Israel's high tech exports are in a matter of fact around $35 billion and that is what I would suppose the author is referring to, not just software but all high tech goods and services. I read this in an article.
I tried searching around the internet, I found a little old data, that of 1996. In 1996, it was $30 bill in total with 80% coming from high-tech, read the article below.
Lets make sure that we dont construe facts one way or the other.
Check your facts!

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: kahunasbrain 2005-02-22 07:43:44 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
CIA and the FBI are also searching hard for IT in Karachi - Islamic Terrorism, and they have found every IT expert there can be, including top Al Qaida figures.
Keep searching Anthony, until it blows up :-)

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: gujarat2002 2005-02-23 06:30:02 In reply to: kahunasbrain
Most of these 'haldi-raam' indians have a Pakistan complex. So I guess kahuna can't help it. As for the terrorists, I think the RSS, Narindra Modi et all are the biggest terrorists in the region. They roam freely while still being responsible for killing thousands in gujarat massacre, ayodha destruction, golden temple etc. India is just a big communal hell. And now are being caught with nuke puke:

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: music 2005-02-25 18:19:32 In reply to: gujarat2002
Aha. India is caught with Nuke puke. Huh?
Did you read last months Time Magazine cover story?..This is how it starts - "Abdul Qadeer Khan stole nuclear designs from the Netherlands, helped Pakistan build a bomb and then created a vast network that traded nuclear secrets and illicit technology across several continents"
If I were a Pakistani, I would dive into a hole after knowing that the "Father of my bomb" is a THIEF! What a shame!
[ ]

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: infiniguy 2005-03-08 21:31:21 In reply to: music
In reply to What a shame ... huh ?
Commented above ... They roam freely while still being responsible for killing thousands in gujarat massacre, ayodha destruction, golden temple etc. India is just a big communal hell.
this is much bigger thing to be shamed upon !!!
I'm sorry with such indians having no common sense!

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: wobhee 2005-02-22 07:15:14 In reply to: Anthony Mitchell
Before any of you Pakistani Basher start ruining this article I say to them that I know India is Super Great, better than China, Pakistan and even better than America. You are a mahaan country with mahaan people so let us pakiz do the discussion here. I would request the Pakistani readers to ignore them and discuss the article and avoid a wrestling.
I really liked the point of view of Tony on international companies trying to market Pakistan through India, South Africa or elsewhere because Pakistan itself has a lot of increasing market and with completely "hungry for product" countries like Afghanistan, and Central Asian Countries are next to us. On top of that the middle eastern market should be marketed from Pakistan as these companies can utilise the potential work force with good incentives from the Government. In doing that these companies will cater for the requiremnts of the Pakistani market rather than targeting it from a third country with totally different mindset. We are happy to have India as our neighbour but we don't like to an email address with in it as we are a proud Pakistanis.

Red Hat in Pakistan
Posted by: Arpatech 2005-02-25 02:25:28 In reply to: wobhee
Arpatech Pvt. Ltd:
As a channel partner of Red Hat, we would like to clarify some of the points Mr. Mitchell is making. With respect to the products not being available, this most likely has to do with Educational Software, because this has been an issue we have had to deal with.
Red Hat has as yet not offered discounted Educational Software to the Pakistani market. I think this is perhaps not even offered in the Indian market. We are working closely with Red Hat to address this issue, and in the near future will have a satisfactory resolution for the Educational sector in Pakistan.
On R&D and Marketing - there too we believe Red Hat is going to make efforts to provide the Pakistani market with investments. We are in discussion with Red Hat at providing local telephony support for the Pakistani market, which will enhance the level of service for local customers of Red Hat products.

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: music 2005-02-25 00:01:41 In reply to: wobhee
Look. I don't wish to get into an argument here. But given that the author has made a case for Pakistan by projecting how bad India is for business, don't we have a write to prove it otherwise?. None of us would have posted here had the author given an objective analysis of the IT industry in Pakistan, without going into this vis-a-vis India mentality.
The authors points mostly fringe on insanity. He chose to project the looks of an orcl office which probably is one of the many that is out there. Did he take a look at the office of Infosys which a US magazine recently said looks like Hollywood?
It's great that Pakistan's PM was the No 3 at Citibank. Clap Clap Clap (Standing Ovation!. But let me add that the NO 1 at Citibank (Just retired) was an Indian.
Please don't make any comparison between Pakistan and Israel. They are poles apart. And don't point a few .com's to prove your point. We have been there and done that.
Last but not the least, Tony, Please dont make an ass of yourself!

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: gujarat2002 2005-02-26 15:55:30 In reply to: music
I am amazed at what most of your indians are concentrating on out there with respect to this article. As I mentioned earlier, you haldi-raams have nothing but a Pakistan complex. You look at everthing thru your narrow indian mind which can't grasp anything good happening to Pakistan or any of your other neighbours. So you keep on trying to find ways how the author is lying and is just making stuff up.
Well, I got nothing to say for you pathetic "banya" souls but the fact is that we Pakistanis don't care what you Indians think. We know that we conquered and drove the Indian "banya" to the outskirts of the sub-continent for the better part of some 800 years. We [muslims] made the biggest monuments the world has ever seen in the shape of the Taj Mahal, Lal Qilla (Red Fort) when we expanded our empire from Persia to South East Asia. Those glory days still give us confidence. But you, you haldi-raams will just keep on crying on what Gandhu was killed for, why he gave up "banya" land to the muslims. Well too bad, you can't do much about nothing but just keep on spreading your indian verbal diarrhoea :)
As for this article, thumbs up to Mr. Mitchell. He has invested a great deal of research in this article and that is sincerly appreciated by investors like myself in the Silicon Valley. I think the big plus Pakistan offers in comparison to other countries is its largely untapped english speaking pool for BPO as well as the huge number of CS graduates for development work. The 30% cheaper dev. cost compared to indian companies is also a big factor in favor of Pakistan. With the fundamentals looking good, I think it is only a matter of time Pakistan will be able to make a niche for itself in the Global IT sector.

Most Muslim today countries are stooges of other powers
Posted by: music 2005-02-27 00:31:11 In reply to: gujarat2002
To start with, you certainly don't sound like an "investor" in Silicon Valley. But you sure do sound like a bearded Mullah suffering from hemorrhoids.
Your Point No 1 - "We know that we conquered and drove the Indian "banya" to the outskirts of the sub-continent for the better part of some 800 years. We [muslims] made the biggest monuments the world has ever seen in the shape of the Taj Mahal, Lal Qilla (Red Fort) when we expanded our empire from Persia to South East Asia"
My Answer: Muslim nomadic invaders from Afghanistan had invaded India during the early centuries. They had looted the wealth of India and along the process had built some structures. But keep in mind, they destroyed and razed to the ground the splendid architectures of the ancient Indian civilization. Even today you will see some left over from that destruction (Maurya) at Konark, Ajanta etc. The truth is that your culture have no room for tolerance, hence anything and everything other than your own has to be destroyed. Why? Even recently in Afghanistan the Taliban destroyed the world's largest Buddhist structures at Bamiyan.
Don't be overly confident about your folks invading land from "south east asia to persia". In the ancient times, most nomadic civilizations had made a habit of invading other lands. The Mongols routed the Islamic empire in central asia. {Side note:Atilla Hun and Genghis Khan (Khan just means leader of the clan here, he was not a Muslim) were so brutal to them, that apparently the breasts of their virgin woman were given as delicacies to the Mongol commanders after a victory} So "we muslims" were just another set of barbarians.
The truth is that, India at its height of glory many many centuries ago was a pacifist society focused on the Intellectual/mind/knowledge aspect. Conquering of other lands and invasion was not there on the agenda (May be they should have!)
It is that civilization that provided the world the numerical system as you see today, origin of mathematics, chess and many many more.
Excerpts from a highly popular book by Dr. Serge Trifkovic.
The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam
Buy it at Amazon!
This is what Bill Clinton said - "Now, I realize to many of you this comes as no surprise, since the decimal system was discovered -- invented in India. If it weren't for India's contributions in math and science, you could argue that computers, satellites and silicon chips would never have been possible in the first place, so you (India) ought to have a leading role in the 21st century economy"
So the bottom line is that our priorities were different. Does not mean that we were better or you were bad. It just means that maybe you should not be that proud of driving "banya from their land" (your choice of words - maybe this is the secularism that Anthony was talking about, and the great educational system in Pakistan?). Let me also add that if there is a chance in the world today for a Muslim to be the President/Prime Minister of a potentially powerful nation, it's only India!
If you are still proud that "we muslims" drove "banyas" and if you are still living in those glory days, maybe you should frame this picture and hang it in your wall. That should bring you down to Mother Earth once in a while,
PS - For the time being, try Preparation H.
and by the way, we have started our conquest too, ;-)
I like Muslims, but not your type. Like the ones found in India, Turkey etc.

NASA exam topper (Indian Media...a hoax)
Posted by: ammarsit 2005-03-07 22:07:14 In reply to: music
this story appeared sometime back in the entire Indian media ... now what do u say Mr Music??
then this
Now appears the real story
very funny indeed but just a display of media power that highlights how good Indian media is at manipulating things as they wish. Authenticity is far more important than baseless news all covered with flowery words.

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: wobhee 2005-02-26 15:22:27 In reply to: music
I am happy that you wished to avoid the argument but couldn't help yourself and mentioned that an Indian headed the Citibank. The fact of the matter is that the author has used this fact to make a strong case for Pakistan that a business minded person is taking the decision at the highest level in Pakistan while that Non-Resident Indian was the citibank head but he is not anywhere near that top level of taking decisions for the Indian economy. You should rather be proud that you have an economist as your prime minister.
You and other Indians are most welcome to express your opinions but if you notice the tone of some Indians then one feels that Indians are really taught in some Pakistan bashing schools. We don't hate you that much. You and other Indians just need to read few articles on by the Indian journalists, who wrote extensively about Pakistan during India-Pakistan cricket matches, that how they felt when the visited Pakistan. The terrorism issue is over hyped. We don't deny it's not there but it's restricted and common man is not affected by it. Karachi stock market wouldn't be among the best performing stock markets of the world if people were afraid of security issues that much. Indian government and companies wouldn't be willing or anxiously waiting to come and invest in Pakistan and do business with us if that was the case. The foreignt direct investment (FDI) has increased 52% in last seven month. It wouldn't happen if foreigners were afraid of coming here. On top of that if we were an insecure country India would not have okayed the plan to import gas via Pakistan. :-)
Indians must learn that they have a lot of problems otherwise they will not be the power they want to be as you cannot be where you want to be unless you know where you are. We Pakistanis realise that we have problems but we are positive about them that they can be resolved.
You should read this article 'India still has a long way to go' by Michael Porter. He doesn't need any introduction as he is THE authority on strategy matters and competitives.

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: music 2005-02-26 22:18:24 In reply to: wobhee
Very true. There is no doubt about the fact that India has a long long way to go if it has to reach a comfortable status. Not just Michael Porter, but a host of other Biz gurus have talked about it. So much so Porter has been a frequent visitor to India these days giving speeches on the same.
Let us be honest here. Throughout his series Anthony and the Pak group who is sponsoring his trip has sought to project Pakistans strength by projecting the bad aspects of India. So what do you expect us to do? Of course, we are as ruthless as a businessman as you, so our plan naturally is to counter that strategy. To me it's just the fun of seeing folks like gujrat2002 going beserk! and aren't debates fun? :-)
As for the gas pipe line, the decision has not been made yet i.e India has not yet decided to join the iran-pak pipeline due to security concerns :-(

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: wobhee 2005-02-27 14:37:50 In reply to: music
Thank you for understanding my point of view about India through the article of Michael Porter. You accept what he says because he visited India but Indians have a problem, generally speaking, taking the fact on board that India have higher taxes which Tony has mentioned. It is just a direct comparison between two companies. I like the way when Indo-Pak people talk in their "desi" (local) English because I am proud of it but if Americans, Mr Mitchell or above all your CLIENT doesn't like it then just accept it that it is a fact and don't go about beating the bush.
Pakistanis maybe sponsoring Mr Mitchell as I don't know it but wouldn't they send him to India to "projecting the bad aspects of India". He has been involved with Indian IT Industry since 1987 so he is good if he good things about India but devil when saying something that goes against India? What kind of mentality is that? Calling names and spreading information is not a "strategy" but rather a lack of self confidence on behalf of Indians.
I don't believe in who started the argument as it doesn't take you anywhere but if you were fair then you would realise that gujrat2000 replied to someone's reply who is saying something completely baseless against his/her country. If everything is so hunky dory in India then Indians should emphasise that rather than to malign Pakistan.
As for Indian pipeline is concerned you should think above the petty issues like since there has not been any signature on the dotted line then it means there is no decision yet but the truth is that Indian cabinet or parliament has okayed the plans to get gas from Iran or Turmenistan THROUGH Pakistan as it Iranian option is the cheapest of them all. Indians will be daft not to get this gas from Iran through Pakistan as no businessman would go for an expensive option while the security issues are almost the same considering gas will have to come through either Bangladesh or Pakistan. Read this

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: music 2005-02-28 09:47:57 In reply to: wobhee
I really don't know what you are trying to blabber here! The entire purpose of a goddamn discussion thread to critique an article. So why do you get so defensive about me raising counter points to the ones Tony mentioned.? As for my "CLIENTS", I don't have any, Maybe when I get into my 30's I will a few of them. If it is "a direct comparison between 2 countries/companies", my response here (in this forum) attempts to debunk that erroneous comparison.
These are Mitchell's points that I wanted to counter,
1. However, the relatively open and trusting nature of Pakistanis has made them easy prey for Indian business brokers who have managed to cheat several Pakistani IT firms by offering to provide them with outsourcing contracts in exchange for up-front fees. The Pakistanis assumed that these Indians were open minded and charitable for coming to help less experienced firms in Pakistan gain access to international contracts, until the Indians took their money and disappeared.
2. Once you have lived through a few riots in India, once you have taught yourself how to quickly turn the lights out and lay down on the floor because you are afraid of what might come through the window, then Pakistan doesn't seem so scary anymore.
3. Staying in a rundown colonial-era mansion in downtown Kolkata a few years ago, I was surprised to find that an old horse stable on the property had been turned into an Oracle (Nasdaq: ORCL) Latest News about Oracle service center. It still looked like a stable. Inside the dimly lit room were rows of tiny monochrome monitors, manned by quiet workers, mostly women. "Can you find us any Oracle work?" asked the mansion's owner. "Can you find these people bigger monitors?" should have been my reply, "and a proper restroom?" Here in Karachi, everything has been on the up and up, so far.
4. Pakistani IT firms have been quietly doing work for international clients such as (Nasdaq: AMZN) Latest News about, Wal-Mart, and Fry's Electronics while those clients' slower competitors follow the herd into Pakistan's neighbor. (Ha ha ha ha)
Not that I'm offended by any of these, but I WOULD like to counter them, just for the heck of it. It has nothing to do with our "lack of self-confidence". Dude, we have gotten this far by clearly understanding what our strengths are and what we lack.
Now back the spirit of debating.
1. Oil Pipe line.
India is working out a series of deals in the energy arena, with Iran, Russia (Yukos assets), Myanmar (through Bangladesh), sudan, Angola, Libya, Turkmenistan and Pakistan (as a transit nation). What I am trying to say is that a whole series of energy deals are being worked out, multiple options of delivery are being looked at, and of course since Pakistan is a bordering land it has a stake here. The truth is that this pipeline has dragged so far (still not done yet) precisely due to the security aspect. i.e the security aspect is the biggest variable in that discussion.
Please allow me to use Peter Drucker ("The father of modern management")
So there are Drucker's and Porter's and other gurus who have their own views. Porter these days is a much sought after speaking consultant in India. Does that tell you anything?
Didn't know that Pakis can't stomach some hard response that come their way! But then it's all a show isn't it?

Re: Searching for IT in Karachi
Posted by: wobhee 2005-02-28 18:36:14 In reply to: music
I don't see anything wrong with any of the points raised by Tony. Anyhow, if you want to aruge just for the heck of it then you are most welcome :-)
As for CNN news is concerned about Pakistan security I would just mention that they used to think Karachi was capital of Pakistan till mid 90's. So, again, I must emphasise that security issues are over highlighted especially in Pakistan. I live abroad and sometime feel unsafe when I hear the stories but once I am there it is all happy life.

All whining and no play makes Maqbool a Maha boring boy
Posted by: music 2005-03-01 10:21:10 In reply to: wobhee
Thanks! But I can't believe that you don't see anything wrong with the points Tony raised!! But then, he raised it on your behalf isn't it? If you really think (as Tony said) that your IT industry is in disarray because our folks ran away with your money, then trust me, that is not good at all for the indo-pak peace process.
Ok, now. This is what Mani Aiyar (India's Petroleum Minister) said,
"Security of gas supplies through Pakistan territory is a major concern in the development of Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline project," Aiyar said.
Not that I'm trying to put Pakiland down, but just trying to point the facts about the 'petro/gas' to you!
As somebody said in a post here, this thread is not contributing to any intellectually intensive discussion. So I've decided to raise a white flag and gallop away.
PS - But as a parting shot I do have to say that based on his writing style/ Analysis style, I'm more inclined to believe that Anthony Mitchell got his degree from the non-accredited & defunct Hanuman college in Bihar, not Rutgers.
Khuda Afiz!

Re: I didn't understand title of your post.
Posted by: wobhee 2005-03-01 16:51:23 In reply to: music
It is fine when you disagree with whatever he is saying but some Indians would rather go and call him names (You should check some other articles and read some responses by my Indian friends). Can you achieve something by belittling anyone's educational qualification. Just say I don't agree with this point because I have this proof. Finish!!!!
Indian Petroleum Minister talking about Pakistani security issue is analogous to Greenpeace member talking "favourably" about Oil companies. I hope you will understand.
Take Care and it was nice exchanging views with you rather than some idiots.
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