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ECT News Community   »   E-Commerce Times Talkback   »   Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: Philip Ben-David 2003-12-10 03:29:16
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Since the unveiling of its Unix-based OS X operating system, Apple has been releasing "point upgrades" about once per year, charging $129 for each one -- a pretty stiff fee for staying current. This in itself might not be so bad, except that in the process of speeding development through the pipeline to grab extra revenue, Apple seems to have lost the handle on quality control with its latest upgrade, 10.3, or Panther.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: kenbo 2003-12-15 14:32:28 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
While you have valid points to gripe about Mail, File Vault, or the M$ing of Apple, your facts are only based on these forum posts, which for the most part only refer to problems that these particular users are having. The number of posts complaining about them do *not* constitute a large number of Panther users. I've had absolutely zero issues with Mail, safari, or FontBook (I don't use FileVault but the problem was addressed in a FREE incremental update), and do not post my lack of displeasure. If you were able to count the number of zero-prob users like myself, you will realize that a large number of Panther users find mail *usable.* You are in a position to post whatever you want to say and influence the lesser informed individuals who read your article, so I would not be so narrow-minded with this topic. With all due respect, for you to base your facts on a small percentage of users looking for answers on a forum devoted primarily for issues is, in my opinion, journalistically irresponsible. i'm sure you've succeeded in misleading some of your readers with your facts in this article.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: fizikci 2003-12-10 23:15:28 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
What is blatantly obvious to me is that this article, from inception, was meant to be one-sided and blind to balance. Every piece of software has problems, some worse than others, but Apple's OS and Mail applications are not among those. This is obvious to anyone who works with a variety of applications every day, especially to those who support those platforms and applications. It does lead me to wonder what ecommercetimes allows to be posted under the image of informed commentary or even news.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: Schadow 2003-12-10 14:04:52 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
The comment in this article stating that Apple Discussions Helpers delete posts is totally false. I am a Helper there and the ability to alter or delete posts is way above our pay grade, which is zero. We are not Apple employees. I may be biased, but I think the deletion process in Apple Discussions is very carefully administered. It's only when posters forget where they are and sound like they are in some of the other chat rooms posing as technical discussions do they get bleeped. And, once more for clarity, not by Helpers.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 15:28:29 In reply to: Schadow
Assuming you're correct, and I do not doubt that you are, then the situation is more dire than I thought. What you're saying is that while Apple employees have time to read the posts and delete those they think overly critical, they do not have time to constructively reply to any posts. For that, they rely on unpaid "helpers." How very cost-effective.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: Schadow 2003-12-10 20:45:33 In reply to: PhilipAlan
No, Apple employees do not have time to read all the posts. That's why they implemented the Helper program about two years ago. There are about 100 of us, worldwide, spread around the many topic forums. Our principal work is to help users with their problems. If a post or thread seems to be going bonkers, we notify the people we report to and they make final judgements about deletion or editing. Sometimes they accept our recommendations and sometimes not. Apple Discussions terms of use are not Machiavellian. No selling. No petitions. No speculation about future products. Generally civil discourse. Contrary to the article, many posts critical of Apple, if constructive and not just flames, remain in place until server overload demands generalized pruning. We help thousands of users solve their problems every day and know that there are millions of problem-free Mac users who don't need us. We are justifiably proud of the work we do.

FUD in Action
Posted by: DrDude 2003-12-10 13:57:49 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
Phillip, the first thing that comes to mind when I read your article is FUD, FUD, FUD (okay, that's three things).
The discussion boards at Apple are for people that HAVE PROBLEMS! I submit that for every 1 that posts, there are hundreds that have no problem at all! (and the helpers are not the ones that delete posts).
Using the Mail issue to link Apple to M$ tactics is just crazy. You have taken 0.5% of the picture and extrapolated to a totally false conclusion. You are just WAY off-base. People should question your ability to analyze such situations.

Re: FUD in Action
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 15:35:42 In reply to: DrDude
I'm not sure where FUD comes into this. There is no Fear, other than that of people whose files were corrupted by File Vault, or whose businesses (like mine) live and die on e-mail; there is no Uncertainty, other than not knowing if one's POP accounts will work today; and there is no Doubt that Apple will, in a year's time, be dipping into your pocket for another $129.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: wilmill 2003-12-10 13:40:30 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
The Panther OS improved performance by 20 per cent on my iBook 500. Tell me a cheaper way for that kind of boost. You mention that a lot of users suffer in silence. I would like to propose that most Mac users celebrate in silence, knowing that Apple, with all the faults of a corporate being, is still committed to its customers and tries to afford them the best user experience possible.

Feel like i'm missing something
Posted by: biggstuu 2003-12-10 13:24:22 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
I just read your article and as i reader i trust i got the intended message, apple is missing the boat on QA. I'd like to offer some to you too.
Yes apple has updated the OS each year w/a "point upgrade", but understand, it is not a simple service pack released yearly ala Microsoft. Understand, it's a different naming convention. Each ".x" release has new features, improves on the existing ones, and moves the platform forward. If i can say for myself, Panther has improved leaps and bounds beyond previous MAC OS's.
I think it's seriously debatable that mail is unusable. I have used mail without flaw since the upgrade, very stable, fast and it renders very well. In fact, my folks just switched and love the fact of how mail integrates so easily w/all the iapps. Mind you they were PC newbies to begin with and now are seasoned veterans on a 1ghz Emac.
It should also be kept in mind for each 1 that complains about a computer problem, there may be 10 or more that have no issues whatsoever. 10 others that may be in a state of perpetual bliss. I myself being one. It's kinda like visiting infiniti's web site and seeing 30 people complaining about a g35 engine problem, but then the car wins JD Powers car of the year, because 30000 respondents rated the engine trouble free.
As far as Apple censoring, would you allow f-bombs and other unprofessional diatribes to litter your public message boards? I have seen very critical and revealing posts on Apple's boards that were well written and directed, and they were responded to in kind, even if the answer was "we are currently investigating the issue".
It just seems your viewpoint is a bit skewed towards problems w/the OS. The OS on a whole has been lauded by some of the most ardent mac critics in the industry and they all seem to be saying the same thing, the OS is amazing.
Myself, i am willing to pay $130/year to have a more productive, stable, secure OS. My 4 year old G4 feels like a new machine under 10.3 and yes, that is worth $130 to me.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: macartisan 2003-12-10 10:01:25 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
"This change means that you may choose not to use Mail, but you had better not delete it from your system or you will lose the option to not use it -- or to specify a different choice of software down the road"
If you DELETE Mail, you WILL BE FORCED TO USE IT IN FUTURE. Yeah. Un-hunh.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 14:01:30 In reply to: macartisan
Your (sarcastic) comment is correct. What the author should have said is that if you delete Mail, you will not be able to specify another mail program as the default since that preference setting is contained within Mail itself.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: cloudbase9 2003-12-10 09:21:12 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
Among my many friends and co-workers with Macs, I've actually seen none of the probems with Panther mentioned in this article. What I do hate about Panther is the arrogant and insidious way that Apple has manipulated the OS such that it forces me to not use Windows. I insist Apple do something about that before it descends into hell as a company.
I also commend the author as he nobly defends those pitiful victims of tech-lust consumeritis who can't help but spend their last $129 on an annual OS upgrade instead of buying food for their kids. Apple should immediately start a fund to help the starving children of Mac users.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: mcsjgs 2003-12-10 08:48:46 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
I read your article, and there are some inaccuracies to point out. You make it sound as if the vast majority of Panther users have experienced system-threatening problems and then are gagged by Apple for complaining. This is simply not true. Most Panther users are very happy with the new OS. They consistently say it is faster and easier to use than Jaguar (10.2). There have been problems, such as Firewire drive data loss with certain chipsets and FileVault corrupting data. Apple addressed these problems in a week after release with 10.3.1. In addition, there is a major bug-fix (10.3.2) scheduled for release very soon that will solve, most if not all, of the remaining bugs.
A very important point you failed to mention is that Apple's Mac OS X, out of the box, is safe and secure from viruses and hackers. Microsoft, on the other hand, has taken quite a few years to come to the conclusion that user security is important. November was one of the first months in a while that there was no security patch issued by Microsoft. Many corporate users are beginning to appreciate the security features offered by Apple in computing total cost of ownership.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 15:41:39 In reply to: mcsjgs
It is interesting how you know that a bug fix is due out "very soon," since Apple is famously reluctant to discuss future releases. Perhaps that is simply what common sense dictates.
And I wouldn't be too self-congratulatory about the lack of viruses. If you were a hacker and you wanted to disrupt as many computers as possible, would you spend your time writing a virus for 2 1/2 percent of the world's computers. or the other 95 percent (allowing for Linux)? I suggest that OS X simply isn't a big enough target for the truly ambitious hacker to go after.

You are an ignorant fool!
Posted by: macFanDave 2003-12-10 08:02:48 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
- Are you one of these Paul Thurrott, Rob Enderle Microsoft-paid FUDsters who spread lies for dollars?
- The reason that they are "point updates" is that they are pretty much stuck with the 10 to the left of the decimal in order to stay coordinated with the X. In reality, Jaguar should have been 11.0 and Panther 11.5. [You should] realize that .5 upgrades haven't been free for a long time.
- Mail is better than ever. You are simply lying about its usability. If you prefer another product, that is fine, but your lies about Apple's Mail are inexcusable.
- Apple is generally VERY tolerant of what they allow on their discussion boards. I've seen many highly-critical threads remain there indefinitely. I've also seen a few get wiped out, but those have usually been eliminated because flame wars between users were breaking out.
- Now that your ignorance of Apple has been exposed, maybe you'd better quickly cash your check from Gates, Ballmer and Co. and start cranking out your next article about how Linux causes Irritable Bowel Syndrome.

Re: You are an ignorant fool!
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 08:36:18 In reply to: macFanDave
Lies about Mail?I suggest you go to Apple's discussion site and read what's there.
You are precisely who Apple depends upon to foist whatever it wants on its users.

Re: You are an ignorant fool!
Posted by: WaltFrench 2003-12-10 15:42:57 In reply to: PhilipAlan
... Apple's own online forums [show] that, for a large number of Panther users, Apple's Mail program is pretty much unusable...
Guess this depends on your characterizations of "a large number" and "pretty much unusable." I wouldn't be surprised to hear that several dozen users are having trouble with Mail, but I think most people would read the above as a "large fraction -- maybe a majority -- can't get it to work." That can't possibly be so.
Perhaps since you're so big on QC, you could clarify your meaning so that people don't think you're sloppy or lying. While you're at it, why not lay out a standard that you think is reasonable. Similarly to how medical types have to determine how many deaths are acceptable for a vaccine that prevents an uncommon disease, how much grief is too much in a world where Apple cannot possibly control all the variables? If you call for zero tolerance, I'd argue that you're also, by demanding the impossible, damning Apple for any effort at progress whatsoever. "The Best is the enemy of the good." -- Voltaire

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: dimamarkman 2003-12-10 07:27:51 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
maybe I'm very lucky but I didn't see even a single problem
with panther (I installed panther at least on 3 Powerbooks)
and none of them had troubles, sorry :-)
Mail, Safari, CodeWarrior, Photoshop, Java, XCode and many other applications are working as expected
Note: usually I don't install 3rd party system extensions
that's probably why

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: Macaholic 2003-12-10 06:07:12 In reply to: Philip Ben-David
Tempest in a teapot.
Apple can screw up once in a while, but I would take the occasional failing from them over the ongoing failures that Windows users choose to live with. The problems you cite -- although serious -- affected a small percentage of the user base. And, if I've seen one thing, Apple has proven very responsive to such issues in their OS.

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: TroutMask 2003-12-10 07:59:19 In reply to: Macaholic
No kidding! This is all you can find to complain about in an operating system that is only a few years old, still on its .3 release!? Where do I buy my copy?

Re: Apple's Panther: Something Wicked This Way Comes
Posted by: PhilipAlan 2003-12-10 07:16:52 In reply to: Macaholic
I have to agree with MacDuff about preferring Apple's failings to Microsoft's. However, the failings cited in the article were but examples of what seems to be a more serious trend: Apple's increasing tendency to behave, in some ways, like Microsoft. Thus, the examples of locking users into its programs, like Mail, and of releasing half-baked upgrades.
Jump to:
Given the spread of the Covid-19 Delta variant, if my employer requires me to return to the company's location in 2021, I will...
Agree because I'm fully vaccinated.
Agree if the company institutes a mandatory mask requirement and other safety protocols.
Comply reluctantly, because I can't afford to lose my job, but start looking for different employment.
Resign immediately so I can dedicate all of my time to find a job I feel is safer.
Resign because I'm not vaccinated and don't want to risk infection to myself or others.